Curse

One and Two · Oct 25, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

/not signed.

Lagg · Oct 25, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Cattle.

Eder · Oct 25, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Not signed at all.

Don't you think it's already silly enough that in PvE the mobs are as dumb as a door and incapable of applying more advanced strategies than "It aggro me, I chase it and kill it!"?

The fact that mobs sometimes ignore anyone but the original aggroer or an item carrier (even when he is obviously a decoy) is to me a *flaw* in the game's AI - coming up with a skill whose only purpose is ensuring that the (already subpar) AI will continue to do something totally predictable and illogical (in the rare occasions in which it doesn't already fit that bill) is, quite simply, a terrible idea.

striderkaaru · Oct 25, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkinmofo

You would be better off proposing a rescue skill for when pulls/aggros go wrong.

Rescue:
Target touched ally is knocked down for (range based on tactics) secs and out of harms way while you intercede and attack agressive melee foe.
Energy - 10
Duration - based on tactics
Recharge - 45

this skill already exists in multiple forms. it's called "bring a hammer and knockdown opponent and position yourself in front so you take aggro when he gets up."

@lagg
your proposed solution really will take skill away from the game.

imagine that it is implemented. a pull can be done properly to get initial aggro on the tank. if anything goes wrong and aggro is broken, anyone can simply press a button and reclaim all aggro again. where is the skill involved in that? it's too easy and anyone can do it.

the way things are now, if aggro is broken, a warrior will either know what to do or not. those who don't will randomly attack an enemy while the casters get massacred. those who do know what to do know who to protect first and how.

you say that a well prepared team is penalized by broken aggro. well prepared for what? for having all aggro on the tank and the nukers nuking around him? that's a very limited build and says nothing of the skill of the players. maybe a prepared farming team will be penalized. but a well prepared team will know how to scramble and still win the battle.

Aetherfox · Oct 25, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

well for one thing : research, common sense and long experience in multiplayer gaming has shown that players do NOT like losing control over their characters for whatever reason. any ability which makes their character act in a way not of their volition = bad idea. which is why taunts are rarely implemented in serious multiplayer games.

your implementation of the skill could work though : your skill never stated that the player was compelled to act in a certain way. if you were hit by that skill in PvP you'd just immediately switch targets back to whoever you were hitting. there might be problems if you used it in IWAY (6 warriors chain casting it? haha)

and it would work fine in PvE because, well, monsters aren't quite so singleminded.

from a game mechanic and balance point of view i'd have no problem with it as a skill.

your counter argument makes no sense whatsoever by the way : you state that this skill is a response to bugs in the game that cause groups with good warriors to fail to control aggro properly : sigh, no, you should never design skills to iron out bugs. the only correct thing to do is fix the bug.

on one hand, PvE is easy enough that you can get by totally fine without an aggro shout. BUT... there is really nothing wrong with making it easier if adding skills make the game more interesting? more powerful warrior aggro control skills will mean that warriors will be more demanded in groups, and general difficulty of PvE will have to be ramped up to compensate for more powerful skills being available.

is this generally a good direction you wish the game to take? for me, the answer is no, and hence i would not agree with a.net implementing a skill of this description.

Jetdoc · Oct 25, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I'd love this for PvP...you automatically aggro enemy casters that are running away from you.

Krazax · Oct 26, 2005, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

A very basic skill that any good PvE tank seems to be lacking, is the ability to (somehow) recover from a bad pull. No matter how skillful and careful a party is, these do occur, simply because of the game mechanics. So the need of an aggro-reclaiming skill arises.

I suggest a Warrior shout, with Tactics req, that makes all the enemies within his or her aggro circle, switch aggro to him.

"Get Over Here!" (as an homage to Mortal Kombat)

Cost: 10 energy
Recharge: 30 seconds

Shout. All nearby foes have a [50...80%] chance to target you. (Attrib: Tactics)

(At 16 Tactics, the chance should be 100%.)

Would this work in PvP? As my guildmate Sitting Sparrow suggested, this would work to some extent. Think of the chaos on the other team if everyone started targeting that Warrior at the same time. This could greatly hamper their coordinated calling.

Lagg,

Tho I can give your props for your MK homage, I can't say I agree with your idea. Being able to pull aggro on all mobs to you is too powerful and it does make the game easier, and not more challenging.

I had been thinking to myself that warriors needed some form of a rescue skill. You know for when you've mopped up your mobs and those darn pesky ones are chasing the frail casters around, and just don't seem to want to NOT attack them despite how much you wail on them?

Well bro, there is a skill and it works rather nicely in this circumstance. It's just named something completely unrelated to what you use it for: Bull's Strike. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/137-bull-s-strike This is warriror rescue. Works with all weapon types. What's nice about it, is it even works as a dmg attack b/c it has a dmg bonus. After you knock down your target, by the time he gets up, he'll be fighting you.

Man With No Name · Oct 26, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Be nice to give Warriors something -- this wouldn't be it though...

I'd prefer them to boost the normal running speed -- so that we're faster than normal classes. The ability to swing on the run, so to speak -- rather than play the stop to swing animation and maybe making Strength give it's 2% penetration per point again ( on attack skills ).

Strength is seriously lacking as a Primary, in my opinion. Certainly not as good as either Divine Favour or Expertise...

These are the buff's I'd do at least...

neoteo · Oct 26, 2005, 06:08 AM // 06:08

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the game mechanics of an FPS shooter are completely different from an RPG.
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true , but this RPG game is inovative in the mecanics comparing to old school RPG games , in this game you can dodge atacks ... its not yet a halflife 2 gravaty pull phisics ... but dodging atacks makes combat depend a lot more on position/running skills.

Rajamic · Oct 26, 2005, 07:57 AM // 07:57

How can you be sure AI aggro changing is a bug?

Here's how I see it.

When a PC gets in aggro range of an NPC, that NPC and all the rest of his team charge at that PC.

When the NPC gets to that PC, they will do one of 2 things:
1) Attack the PC that aggroed them, or
2) Pick a different, easier PC that is now in their aggro range and charge them. They then repeat this choice.

Periodically throughout the fight, they will examine how effective they are being against their target. Sometimes, they will decide that they aren't winning the fight and try someone else (again, going for a easier target).

The way they decide who is easy seems to depend on 3 things:
1) The potential target's AL
2) How close the potential target is to the NPC
3) Whether the potential target is running around or standing still.

Thus, with 2 simple strategies, you can create something similar to this skill you suggest, without wasting a skill slot, that works great on warrior enemies. Others shouldn't ever see your non-Warriors unless/until they have to do #2.

1) Have a Warrior pull the enemies. Make sure all Warriors are next to each other when the enemies get to the puller. Make sure no one else has the Warriors in their aggro circles when the enemies arrive at the pullers.

2) The Warriors should, whenever possible, stand still during the fighting. If you are not a Warrior and an NPC decides to attack you, begin running circles around the Warriors. Before too long, the NPC will likely decide he's not doing enough damage to you and switch back to the stationary Warrior.

NatalieD · Oct 26, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Man. After playing City of Heroes and World of Warcraft, when I got to Guild Wars I thought it was totally awesome that tanking doesn't mean standing around yelling insults at monsters, and you have to worry about things like positioning and actually blocking off an enemy's approach to your squishies. But I guess there will always be people who want to stick with the conventional ways...

Racthoh · Oct 26, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Half and half on it.

The concept behind it seems alright, but like some have said it does away some of the skill behind the art of aggroing a mob. However, I have been in PUGs time and time again and the concept of the warrior grabbing the enemies just doesn't click with some people. It could be used as a valuable teaching tool to those who are new to the game playing with veterans. If everyone knew these valuable strategies then why bother bringing any form of res in PvE? Mistakes happen, and you have those skills to counter those blunders.

But at the same time, the abuse would be endless. It's bad enough players use the book trick in FoW, the gears in SF to make matters easy. What do they gain from exploiting these tactics? Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

cataphract · Oct 26, 2005, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

Even if you know your job, things can go wrong.

and that's what makes it interesting. frustrating at times, but interesting none the less. key word: IMPROVIZATION.

/notsigned

edit: by adding that shout, you'd have to add "Go away!" shout too. that one would enable the warrior to scare off aggroed monsters by roaring and flapping his hands like a mad man. there's no need for such Diablo-like skills.

neoteo · Oct 26, 2005, 09:45 AM // 09:45

normaly agrro on warrior fails cose others are moving ... holding still helps on this ...

and when casters are aproching warrior try to make a line in witch warrior is 100% in front covering mobs from you ...

what more to say ...

Undivine · Oct 26, 2005, 03:01 PM // 15:01

On the one hand I agree with a lot of people here that such a skill would remove the challenge out of being a warrior. On the other hand, when an enemy gets fixated on the monk there is absolutely NO way to save him unless you can kill that enemy before he causes a lot of damage. By "damage" I don't just mean killing the monk, I mean preventing the monk from doing his vital job of keeping everyone else alive.

Your suggestion is too powerful and has no use in PvE. If we add an aggro skill at all (and I'm not sure if I approve or not), I'd prefer it be like this:

(Stance) Insufferable Taunt (I'm taking some creative liberty here.

)

Energy: 5
Recharge: 50 (Or just really high, you get the point)

For 7 seconds, target foe cannot attack or cast offensive spells on anyone except for you. However, you take (350 - 200)% damage from his attacks and spells, and his hexes last (350 - 200)% of their normal duration on you. All your stance skills are disabled for 7 seconds.

This allows you to save someone from being targeted in PvE, and also has it's use in PvP. It's not terribly overpowered either. Matter of fact, you'd have to be very cautious using this skill, but it could end up being essential in certain situations.

Obviously I haven't playtested this or anything, so little tweaks and such here and there, but I think you get the overall idea.

That is... IF a taunt skill of any sort is really neccessary, and I haven't decided if it is.

Undivine · Oct 26, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Sorry RoF... I didn't see your post.

Funk ee Monk ee · Oct 26, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

/signed with a catch ...

I loved using Taunt in WC3 with mountain giants. How about a Taunt to take aggro, but take 100% more damage and suffer a random condition. Or expiration of shoutl, all mobs converge on one caster. There has to be a negative, pve is easy enough as it is.